Intro: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Posers podcast, the place where we skip the fluff. Say the quiet parts out loud and dig into what really matters. This is where photography, psychology, and business collide. I'm Jody, your host, and I'm bringing you my raw takes, hard wins, and a whole lot of unfiltered honesty about what it takes to build a photography business that actually connects and makes money.
So ladies, grab your headphones and get your tits up and your ears open because we are going to build something really incredible together.
Oh, ciao, ciao, ciao, my beautiful posers, or my bella posers. , I am so that tourist right now who is trying to use Italian because she's simply been in Italy.
I should start saying like croissant. [00:01:00] Croissant.
Uh, that's French. But, anyways, I am, as of the time of this episode being dropped, I am still in Italy on my family vacation. But in real time, actually, at the time of this recording, I have not even left yet for my Italian vacation. I actually leave tonight on the red-eye. We fly into London and then connect into Venice, and I am very excited.
So if you hear that sort of excitement in my voice, that is why. whenever I start recording whenever I come back from vacation and I am jet-lagged, and exhausted, and broke, and sad that I won't be in Italy for a long time, you'll maybe note the difference in my voice in between those weeks. But, uh, for today, I am very excited.
I also have a really great episode for you today, because I want to talk about the thing that I actually refused to learn, and the [00:02:00] thing that has cost me the most money. And I think about this moment more than almost any other moment in my entire career and the entire building of my business. I was at a photo conference.
This was so many years ago, back whenever I first started my business, 2013, 2014, something like that. And, I thought that I was there for business. I thought that I was at this conference wanting to... This is the same, like, timeframe that I've told you about, that, uh, I went to these conferences and that everything was about, like, you know, the, the motivational speaker, and all of the women in floral, and everybody crying together to these motivational, like, talks, and all of that.
And, and there was the styled shoots. And really, like, I was there for the styled shoots. I was there for the pretty. I was there for all of those things. But I've told you before that I ended up at the bar and, like, actually making really, really, really great relationships with some incredible business owners that [00:03:00] I still very much have in my life today.
But still, even though I was, thinking that I was there to sort of, I don't know, move my business forward, clearly I was not. Because I was standing in... I remember this so vividly. I was walking through this hallway, and this guy comes up to me, a man, a total stranger. He's obviously a photographer, though.
He has the look of a man photographer, okay? But he starts trying to convince me to go sit in on this breakout session about sales because the room was honestly empty, right? All of the other breakout sessions were about all of these other pretty amazing things, you know, website templates and branding and, - posing and all of the things that all of the women wanted to be learning about.
And this room about sales, this breakout session that was geared towards sales, was completely [00:04:00] empty. So, was out in these streets, okay? He was out in the hallways of this conference, and he was trying to get people to come in. And I told him no. Like, flat out no. I remember exactly how I felt saying it, too.
This little, like, flash of absolutely not. That is not what I am interested. I would never in a million years want to be that pushy, that salesy person. I didn't wanna run a business like that. I just wanted to do a photo shoot. I wanted to be all-inclusive. I wanted to charge one flat number on the front end, and then I wanted to hand over every single digital that I took.
That was it. That was my whole business model. Also, because I was a wedding photographer at the time, so I really didn't understand the idea of having a different pricing model inside of my wedding photography business and having something completely different in my portrait business. I did not separate the two, okay?
But my God, if I could go back and slap myself across the face with one lesson, [00:05:00] it's this one. It's in this exact hallway, this exact man, this exact moment. I don't even, I don't even remember how long it was, but I would go back, and I would grab myself by the shoulders, and I would say, "Jody, listen to this man."
And that means something coming from me because I don't think I have ever once in my life been like, "Jody, you need to listen to a man," right? But this one, I wish that I had, because the amount of money that I left on the table by refusing to understand sales, by refusing to even entertain the idea that selling was a skill and not something greasy and gross, honestly, the amount of money I left on the table is nauseating.
It genuinely makes me want to throw up just thinking about it. it is Vomit-inducing. All right? So today's episode is me handing you the thing [00:06:00] that I wouldn't walk into that room for, and I wanna break down my sales framework in the clearest breakdown of how an actual sales conversation should flow.
There are eight steps to this framework, and I want to give it to you in a very quick, very bite-sized version today because talking about sales, it is huge. It i- you know what? We just went through a whole entire series talking about luxury and how big of a conversation that is, and I bet you with sales, I bet you I could triple the length of those conversations.
Okay? But I'm gonna give you the bones of it because I think that every single one of you needs to have this in your back pocket. And I also want to be really clear about something before I dive into this, that this is not just theory for, like, you know, me to sort of be, like, teaching you something here on a podcast.
This is not something that I've made up. This is not just like, "Oh, hey, try it this way, and it should work for you." This is the [00:07:00] exact conversation structure that you should have based on sales psychology. All right? And this also goes with discovery calls, with people wanting to book a shoot. And then also, if you run IPS, then this is the exact structure for your sales room also because sales, no matter what, is the same.
The same eight steps, the same order. It doesn't matter if you are booking a mini session or if you're selling $15,000 worth of artwork. Okay? So same exact process, same exact order, same exact steps. So Let's dive in. Step number one, we are going to isolate their desire. If someone reaches out wanting family photos, that is not usually what they actually want.
They want a result. Maybe it's something like, "I want my kids' childhood captured before they're grown," obviously. Maybe it's, "I wanna feel confident in front of a camera again [00:08:00] after," I don't know, having a baby, or losing a ton of weight, or doing something. Your job on that call is to listen beyond the word photos and photo shoot, and find what they are actually buying.
Okay? Step number two, you're going to isolate the challenge. So step number one, isolate the desire. Step number two, isolate the challenge. And what you're going to do while you're isolating the challenge is you are going to let them talk. You are not talking. You don't fill in any silence for them. You ask them what's been holding them back, and then you simply listen.
And a lot of the time, this is the first time that they've actually said this part out loud, that they've been saying, like, "Oh, I've been putting this off for two years," or, "I hate how I look in photos," or, "My kids are absolutely crazy, and I don't think that they would [00:09:00] cooperate." They're going to say the thing that has actually challenged them to not book this session before.
And what you're going to do is you're gonna repeat it back to them so that they know that you heard it. All right? Then step number three, you're gonna ask what they have tried before. So who else have they looked at? What have they already researched? Like, have they talked to other photographers before?
Have they booked other photographers before and that flopped for them? This tells you everything About where they are comparing you and what they are weighing you against. Okay? Then step number four, you're going to ask what didn't work about it. All right? So what turned them off from other photographers?
What turned them off while they were on other photo shoots that they hated? What were the other options and why didn't that work? And [00:10:00] this is absolute gold, because people are usually much better at telling you what they don't want than what they do want. Okay? Step number five, you're gonna ask what they actually want.
So you're gonna go one layer deeper than step one, because it's rarely just the photos of what the desire is, and you're gonna see what they really want, and it's gonna be something a little bit deeper. Like, "I want to remember what this season of my life felt like," or, "I want my husband to look at me the way that he used to."
And you need to get them to say it in their own words. All right? And then step number six, you're going to ask why now. All right? So this is the line in the sand. This, this is why is this moment out of every other moment that they could have booked a photo shoot, why are they now actually doing [00:11:00] it? And this here, people are- they're gonna self-identify who they want to be, and you need to let them say it.
So step number seven, explain why what you are offering works, and you're going to use their words. now and only now is when you start talking. And when you do, you're not pitching.
You're just a mirror. You're reflecting back everything that they just told you and showing them how what you do actually gets them there. All right? This is the only time that you actually speak quite a bit. All right? And then step eight, you're gonna explain how it overcomes what didn't work before. So you're gonna tie it directly back to step four.
If they said their last photographer felt rushed and impersonal, then you're gonna tell them exactly how your experience is built to [00:12:00] feel like the exact opposite of that. And then you're going to make the offer. And then you're going to say the number. And then, this is the hard part, this is where people stumble, you're gonna ask them how they want to pay for the booking.
And then you're going to stop talking You're gonna let it sit in silence, and you cannot rescue them from that silence by talking yourself down in the price or jumping in because it feels awkward, and then over-explaining more of your process. You simply have to let them respond. Here's what I want you to notice about this whole entire framework.
For the first six steps, you are barely saying anything. You're just listening. That was the piece that I never understood back in [00:13:00] that hallway, right? I thought that sales meant that you were, you know, manipulating people, that you were talking them into something, that you were, you know, like the ... I don't
I actually, even though it's not like n- this isn't sales at all, but any time that I picture, like, a used car salesman, then I picture, like, a used car, like, sales lot, and then I picture one of those big purple or those orange, like, inflatable things, like the little, the little man that has the long arms that he's, like, flopping.
So like, any time I think of a greasy salesman, I actually think about that thing because I think in my head, I think that that greasy type of sales is kind of like a clown, and so , so then my head goes to, like, the used car salesman plus that little, like, floppy, floaty thing that's very, clown-like. , But that's what I used to think that sales meant, and so that's why I had the aversion to it.
That's why I was like, "No, absolutely not. I [00:14:00] don't want anything to do with that." But that's not what sales means. That's not what it does. It means simply listening to someone Into recognizing what they already want, and then showing them that what you have to offer is the obvious answer. It's literally just letting people sit and explain themselves and say what they really want.
And then here's the kicker, if what they want isn't what you offer, then don't get salesy and don't get greasy, and don't make them promises that you can't uphold simply because you want their money. Then it gets a little manipulative. Then it gets a little greasy, right? But whenever someone is sitting there and they are listing out the things that they wanna make sure that they're feeling, and they're listing out the set of desires that they have, and what they wanna make sure that they have, and what they [00:15:00] wanna make sure that they don't have because they know what didn't work in the past, and your offer genuinely and truly is, like, a really great fit for them, then that is when sales can feel so incredible and so aligned, and you are simply showing up as the solution to their problem.
So whether you're on a 15-minute discovery call before somebody books a session, or you're sitting across from a client in your sales room with their gallery pulled up, this is still the same exact conversation every single time. You are still going through this same exact framework. me run through it one more time as if you're sitting in a sales room.
So step one, you're gonna isolate their desire again. So you're gonna sit down in your sales room and you're gonna ask them, "Hey, how do you want to actually enjoy these photos? What is it about these photos that you love that you wanna make sure that you're either having them in an album, you're having them in the [00:16:00] frames?"
Okay? You're going to isolate the challenge. Step two, you're going to say, "How come you haven't done this in the past? If you love album ... You're telling me right now that you loved, whenever you were a little girl, you used to climb up on your grandma's lap, and you used to look at these family albums that she had.
So if you're telling me that that's the desire that you have, why is it that you haven't done this before? Why is it that this hasn't worked for you before?" Okay? Then, so you're gonna have that challenge, that isolation of that challenge. I got that out of order because I skipped ahead a step. Okay?
Isolate the challenge first. Ask them what's been holding them back, and then you're just listening there. Then you're stepping in for step number three and asking them what they've tried before. So that would be isolating the challenge. You're sitting there and saying, "Okay, why is it that you haven't been doing this thing that you're telling me that is so important to you?"
And then asking them what they've tried before. So then they're saying, "Okay, [00:17:00] well, I did try to do an album one time, but I sat down, it took me two hours. I only got a quarter of the way through it. I couldn't get the design done. It takes too long," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? So then that's what they've tried before.
And then you ask them, step four, what didn't work about it. Okay? So even if you're talking about frames in some other regard, and you're asking them, "Okay, so you're telling me that you loved your grandma's house, that it had, like, these hallways that were lined with frames. You felt this sense of belonging.
You absolutely loved looking at family photos like that. So then what didn't work about it? You went to Target, you got these frames, you put them up on your wall, and then what did you realize?" And then they'll say something like, "Oh my God, well, the scale was all wrong. I got photos that were way too small."
Or, they'll say, "I got to Target and I just, I had no idea what I was doing. I had no idea what size I needed. I had no idea what type of frame I needed. So I just got stopped and sort of like blocked in the [00:18:00] process," and then it's one of those tasks that just gets tossed to the back burner. Okay? So that's step two, three and four.
Then step five, you're gonna ask them what it is that they really, really want. And you're gonna say like, "Okay, so you're telling me that you, you want this thing, but you've had all of these problems getting to it. So what is it? If we could sit down right now, and we could, like, actually give you this dream, what would it look like for you?"
And then step six, you're asking, "Okay, so why now? what is it about it that's different right here, right now, that's actually gonna make you do this thing?" And the best part about step number six is that they are almost always going to say, "Well, you're here helping me." And that's major 'cause they're recognizing it.
"Okay, I now have an expert who's sitting here in front of me, and they're gonna understand the sizing. They're gonna understand what frames I need. They're gonna look at my interior design. They're gonna know whether or not I need modern or [00:19:00] contemporary or vintage or whatever." Okay?
So then step seven, you're gonna explain what about your offer works using their words. So you're gonna go back in and you're gonna be like, "Okay, here's what I hear you saying to me. Here's why this has been hard for you. Here's what you've tried, and now we're sitting here together, and I can actually solve all of these problems for you."
Right? And then step number eight, we're tying it back into step number four. Again, we're explaining how what we do overcomes everything that didn't work for them before, and then we drop the amount, we drop the number, we say the offer, and we simply say, "I've just solved this problem for you. Now, how would you like to pay for this?
Would you like to put it on your debit card, or would you like to get the points on your credit card?" All right? And then you stop talking. Again, you let it sit in that silence. You do not rescue them. They have to give [00:20:00] you the answer about what they want to do. Obviously, this is a much bigger conversation, but like I said, I wanted to give you the nuts and the bolts of it so that you at least have this framework and that you have it in your back pocket.
And like I said before, whether you're on a 15-minute discovery call before the session is booking or you're sitting across from them in the sales room, this framework is the exact conversation that you should be having in any sales situation every single time. Okay? So put it in your back pocket.
Actually, don't put it in your back pocket. Put it on your computer screen. Study it. Learn it. Stick it into your Claude. Stick it into your chat. Expand upon it. Grow. Learn from there, and go crush it the next time that you are in any sort of situation where you are trying to convince somebody to either book a session with you or, go all out [00:21:00] and do a big, huge gallery wall that you can charge 10 or $15,000 for.
All right? That is all I have for you today. Ciao, ciao, ciao, my beautiful posers. I'm just kidding. Um, that's all I've got. Bye for now, posers.
Outro: Okay, so that is a wrap on this episode of the Posers Podcast. If you loved it, please subscribe, rate, and review because honestly, algorithms are needier than all of our ex-boyfriends combined. And ladies, I need all the help I can get. If you've got thoughts, questions, love letters, even hate mail, please send them my way.
I actually read every single one of them. So until next time, stapled, stay messy and don't let the bullshit win. Tits up. Ears open and go build something. Incredible. Bye for now, friends.
